ABC Radio Melbourne Mornings with Raf Epstein - 9 December 2025

Melissa McIntosh MP
Shadow Minister for Communications
Shadow Minister for Women
Federal Member for Lindsay

Tuesday, 9 December 2025

Transcript

ABC Radio Melbourne Mornings with Raf Epstein

Subject: Communications Minister Anika Wells travel expenses; Social media ban; Age verification and Digital ID; Australian’s data stored off-shore by social media platforms.

E&OE ....

Raf Epstein: Melissa McIntosh is a Liberal in the seat of Sydney... Lindsay in Sydney. Not the seat of Sydney. She is also Shadow Minister for Communications and part of Sussan Ley's Shadow Cabinet. Good morning.

Melissa McIntosh: Good morning.

Raf Epstein: If all of Anika Wells' claims are within the rules, are they a problem?

Melissa McIntosh: Her claims are a big problem. The latest, and I'm actually cranky about this because, in your opening, you acknowledged that I've used family reunion too. But for me, I think it should be used sparingly, not as an entitlement because people hate the fact that politicians are spending so much of their money. Anika, it's now been revealed, left a comcar running for seven hours while she went to the tennis and it cost about $1,000. That's pretty much equivalent to what I've spent my whole seven years in Parliament. So, the whole family reunion concept was meant to be because we work away from home a lot, and we want to keep our family units together. Occasionally, if you're working, you can bring your family along or your children. So, it should be used only occasionally from my perspective.

Raf Epstein: She's the Minister for Sport though. You'd expect her to go to things like a grand final, wouldn't you?

Melissa McIntosh: Well, she's gone with her husband to big sporting events like the F1 and the cricket and the AFL, and that's just with her husband. So that's more like date night.

Raf Epstein: So, can I retaliate straight away with the claims against you, Melissa McIntosh?

Melissa McIntosh: Yes.

Raf Epstein: Your son went to a judo competition on the Gold Coast. Like, he didn't have to go to a judo competition when he flies with you to the Gold Coast, does he? That's a judgement you made, but he didn't have to do that.

Melissa McIntosh: Yes. My son was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes just before that, and he was coming up with me, and I didn't take any staff at all, so I saved money there, and there was a decision made quite late that he would still compete in the judo competition. We weren't sure if he was going to be well enough, and I made the decision then, and I went through IPEA, and I did all the right things.

Raf Epstein: Sorry, IPEA's the regulator, the authority.

Melissa McIntosh: Yeah, it's the authority. And then I decided to pay, because he was doing something outside of helping me and being with me up there, I’d pay out of my own pocket him to fly home. So, you know, it's around discretion and making a judgement call.

Raf Epstein: But the rules don't make any of those separations, do they? There's an entitlement. I think Anika Wells all three of her kids are under the age of eight years old. If she's working a lot of weekends as the sports minister, I mean her husband, I presume her husband's a pretty important person in her life. Aren't you sort of trying to say it's one rule for us and another rule for them?

Melissa McIntosh: No, not at all. I think that's what I'm talking about using it sparingly. So, I used it on that occasion, I used it another time I was required to be with the Prime Minister and we went somewhere on a plane and I took another child and only on the third occasion, I was with the Opposition Leader in Melbourne, and took my daughter and we were announcing a social media policy to protect kids. So, I'm just using myself as an example, but what the Minister has done, it's almost like rorting the system and the ability to do it.

Raf Epstein: Are you saying she is rorting?

Melissa McIntosh: Yes, she is on this occasion. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it and it's multiple occasions. This isn't just one slip-up. She's going to multiple events. She flew overseas to the UN and that cost $100,000 in flights.

Raf Epstein: For three people. Yeah.

Melissa McIntosh: Yeah, and $70,000 for an event. So that was sort of mark one against her and it was during a Triple Zero crisis, which I'd love to talk about because sadly, that news has broken that there's been another death and that's a terrible thing. So that was one mark against her, but then she's gone to multiple other events, and now we're hearing she hasn't actually claimed some of the tickets that she received from organisations.

Raf Epstein: Has not declared.

Melissa McIntosh: Yes, she has not declared them, and you have to do that. So, it's a question against her, and it's a question against the Prime Minister, why he's allowing senior ministers to behave this way, and it's not just her. Now we're hearing Senator Farrell has claimed $200... you asked me about three, he's claimed $200,000 in family reunion over four years. So it's $200,000. This is happening on the Prime Minister's watch. What is he doing about this?

Raf Epstein: Melissa McIntosh is who you're listening to, the Shadow Minister for Communications. We'll see if we get to the social media ban as well, because that begins tomorrow. You heard Melissa McIntosh saying, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. Melissa McIntosh, just to, I mean, I always think politicians should be cautious because you live in glass houses. The rules were changed because when Sussan Ley was a Minister, she used travel expenses to go and buy an apartment. David Littleproud, who would be Deputy Minister if you guys run, he had to pay some money back. He also took a parliamentary flight and it looks like he did that after he'd bought an apartment on the Gold Coast. I mean, this is, you're suggesting only the government is doing this to a point that is beyond what should happen. There's a lot of it on your side as well. Like people are using flights to go and buy investment apartments and they're the senior politicians in the opposition.

Melissa McIntosh: Tony Burke had to pay money back as well.

Raf Epstein: Yes.

Melissa McIntosh: So, I'm not denying that we probably do need a re-look at the rules. If people are stretching the boundaries or if it's not clear...

Raf Epstein: So, was David Littleproud or Sussan Ley rorting if you said Anika Wells is rorting or either of them rorting?

Melissa McIntosh: Anika Wells has done this multiple times, multiple events.

Raf Epstein: Sure, you made that point. If someone's using parliamentary flights after they've bought an investment apartment, is that a rort?

Melissa McIntosh: You remember that Sussan Ley resigned from her position.

Raf Epstein: She did.

Melissa McIntosh: So, she didn't get away with…

Raf Epstein: No, I'm just asking for your characterisation. Is it a rort?

Melissa McIntosh: I'm saying Anika Wells is doing that right now. It's very clear. You only have to look at incident after incident, including leaving a comm car running for seven hours while you went and watched the tennis. This is next level stuff. This is beyond anything I've ever heard another politician do, but it doesn't just seem to be her it seems to be the Prime Minister's whole Shadow Cabinet is coming out, it's coming to light. So, I think the question needs to be to the Prime Minister, are his Ministers rorting the system?

Raf Epstein: Well, I guess you can ask your questions and I can ask mine. But I do want to ask you, as the Shadow Minister for Communications, Peter Dutton, in my memory, came out for the social media ban as Opposition Leader, even before the Prime Minister did. He was taken to the election as a bipartisan policy, the social media ban, does it still have your full support?

Melissa McIntosh: You're right, we did lead the way when it comes to the social media ban. The ban itself and protecting kids has my full support. The rollout by the government does not. I have been questioning their ineffectiveness of including platforms. We now are hearing that some kids, well many kids, are already migrating across to other social media platforms that aren't banned, so they're actually not getting off social media and it is very true, despite the fact that the Minister is denying it, that people will be compelled to produce digital IDs or a birth certificate or a driver's licence.

Raf Epstein: Well, they won't be compelled; they're given the option. They're different things, aren't they?

Melissa McIntosh: No, the rule is if your identification, your age can't be verified by a third party generally, age verification technology provider, you will not be able to use that platform because your age can't be verified. So, you will be asked for digital ID to go onto that platform. You will be asked.

Raf Epstein: So you would water that down? You'd get rid of that?

Melissa McIntosh: Well, right now your data, your personal information, is going offshore. It's a third-party provider sending your data offshore into a data centre in another country. There's no guarantee about when that data, your very private information, will be destroyed and what will be done with it. I'm posing the question, do Australians want this? I don't think so. This was never part of the deal with the Coalition.

Raf Epstein: So, you don't want that to be part of it? If you got your hands on the levers, you'd get rid of that digital ID verification?

Melissa McIntosh: I think, no, having to produce your digital ID, so your birth certificate or your driver's licence. The Government set the date for December 10, the age verification technology has only just gone through a trial and there were high error rates in a lot of the work that they did. So, a 15-year-old being seen as a 17-year-old, I think it was like 73% inaccuracy rate. So it's been a very...

Raf Epstein: Sorry, where does the inaccuracy rate come from? The verification trial in Britain, the Government said had very high rates of success. Where does that 73% failure rate come from?

Melissa McIntosh: From our Australian trial that occurred prior to the rollout. So, the digital, the age verification trial, which occurred separately to the rollout of this ban. I want this to work for Australian kids. We want to protect children. It is my job an Opposition Shadow Minister, if I'm doing my job properly, to highlight deficiencies and gaps where I think there is weakness and the Government isn't doing everything it can to ensure this is successful.

Raf Epstein: And you mentioned the Triple Zero issues, the parliamentary inquiry, TPG's revealed someone else in New South Wales maybe they died because of the problems with the older Samsung phones. The Government's been pushing the phone companies, haven't they? They've set up a Triple Zero custodian. Is this on the Government or on the phone companies? It's the phone companies that have dropped the ball, isn't it?

Melissa McIntosh: No, it's on both. I was jumping up and down weeks ago doing a public safety announcement to say there's thousands of people in our country right now who have a Samsung handset that think their phone's working fine, they're operating on 4g. But the way it's been set up, if they try to call Triple Zero the phone tries to divert back to 3g. So, this is part of the Government's failed shutdown of the 3g network. People don't even know that their handset's not going to work. So, I've been pushing the Government to do more on this, let Australians know. Thousands of people could potentially not call Triple Zero and that's what we've heard today. It's extraordinary that TPG only found out yesterday of sadly this death by Telstra and somebody passed away in September. So, I want an independent investigation into the whole Triple Zero network. The government to run it. An independent, not ACMA the regulator. They're caught up in this whole thing. To find out what's going on, what’s going on with our telco providers, what's going on with the network, what's going on with the infrastructure, because we hear of people being able to steal copper wiring that brings down thousands of phone lines for customers. This is just not on. It's not right. People should be able to call Triple Zero when they need it.

Raf Epstein: Melissa McIntosh, before I farewell you, the politics of the day. If Barnaby Joyce is leaving the Coalition, it's not much of a vote of faith in you guys, is it?

Melissa McIntosh: Oh, Barnaby. No, I think everyone saw this one coming, didn't they? And he made his decision. He's always been a good colleague to me, a great local member.

Raf Epstein: It doesn't look like he thinks you're the future.

Melissa McIntosh: I'm not hearing any other murmurings about anything, but I think Barnaby made his position clear quite some time ago.

Raf Epstein: Thank you for joining us this morning.

Melissa McIntosh: Thank you.

[Ends]